For tachiai response time, I swear I've seen Dosukoi Sumo Salon on NHK World have something like that where they timed it. I assume they used video analysis. The force, though... in some cases, I think they put on sensors, but in others, I believe they used estimates of impact from estimated speed, measured weight, etc.
With some of the new AI tools out there, we could probably capture some of your proposed stats from already-extant videos, using some reference stats, like the rikishi's height (and we can correct the bullshit Midorifuji height in the JSA record).
And yeah, I'd use LOGIT or something for the model, but one of the things I particularly like tracking are the kimarite, of course.
I often wonder about tachiais and the advantages and disadvantages of putting fists to the clay first. I notice some rikishi vary on this, but others--like Hoshoryu--insist on being the last one to touch down, while Onosato touches down first and waits. If you're ready to go and are focused on your opponent, you might get some insight into what they're going to do, perhaps by detecting signs of a henka, but if you're the one to touch down last and start the bout, you are able to start before the other realizes it.
Most people don't know that there is a significant delay between when something happens and when we perceive it. Our brains do a very good job hiding this from us. In effect, our perceptions are largely based on predictions and expectations that are corrected after the fact. I wrote about this on my blog (https://www.awondrousworld.com/2024/07/constructing-our-world-what-is-real-13.html) in the third part of this page. This would give Hoshoryu an advantage by giving him a head start and it also accounts for the occasional false starts. Hakuho also insisted on touching down last. On the other hand, and a bit less likely, if you can pick up signals by closely watching your opponent prepare to launch, there might be an advantage in that. Onosato is huge and can afford to start late.
I've tried to see whether there's any custom or unofficial rule as to who touches down last. I thought it might be by rank, with the higher ranked rikishi touching down last, but I haven't noticed any pattern to it.
Mary's memory is right. That was on Dosukoi Sumo Salon. I had it in my queue to watch and so I pulled it out and watched it. They found that Hakuho was the fastest off the tachiai and in the videos they showed I noticed that he touched down last, so that gave him an advantage. But as for speed and hip height, Kisenosato said he was second to last, yet he still become yokozuna. He was always making minute adjustments to his tachiai trying to find the ideal method. There are a lot of contributing factors and variables. Dosukoi also looked at impact force, psychological intimidation, and how long the first and second steps are. Unfortunately, my copy is missing the final 13 minutes.
They said that 80% of bouts are decided by the tachiai, but that sure doesn't seem right to me. A lot of bouts look like they could go either way right up to the end.
I'm definitely interested in find out more on this and it's worth examining.
Thanks for the comment. I read that post and it was fascinating.
And I absolutely agree. It seems like study of tachiai would be great but I don't know how to get in touch with top level rikishi to get an idea about their process haha. Great hearing from you and hopefully I can find more to write on this that's helpful. Cheers!
Great write up, whatever beya hired you would get a quick leg up on the competition.
Fun challenge thinking of other stats. Torso/spinal angle at tachai would be a good one as being upright is credited for losses and certain rikishi are praised for staying low, like the exit angle in baseball might reveal a lot.
Holds broken with the hip wiggle would be another good one to track.
I would be interested to learn how wrong sumo commentators likely are about who has a dominant left etc, those subjective analysis are often proven wrong with hindsight and it’s such a large part of commentary.
For tachiai response time, I swear I've seen Dosukoi Sumo Salon on NHK World have something like that where they timed it. I assume they used video analysis. The force, though... in some cases, I think they put on sensors, but in others, I believe they used estimates of impact from estimated speed, measured weight, etc.
With some of the new AI tools out there, we could probably capture some of your proposed stats from already-extant videos, using some reference stats, like the rikishi's height (and we can correct the bullshit Midorifuji height in the JSA record).
And yeah, I'd use LOGIT or something for the model, but one of the things I particularly like tracking are the kimarite, of course.
I often wonder about tachiais and the advantages and disadvantages of putting fists to the clay first. I notice some rikishi vary on this, but others--like Hoshoryu--insist on being the last one to touch down, while Onosato touches down first and waits. If you're ready to go and are focused on your opponent, you might get some insight into what they're going to do, perhaps by detecting signs of a henka, but if you're the one to touch down last and start the bout, you are able to start before the other realizes it.
Most people don't know that there is a significant delay between when something happens and when we perceive it. Our brains do a very good job hiding this from us. In effect, our perceptions are largely based on predictions and expectations that are corrected after the fact. I wrote about this on my blog (https://www.awondrousworld.com/2024/07/constructing-our-world-what-is-real-13.html) in the third part of this page. This would give Hoshoryu an advantage by giving him a head start and it also accounts for the occasional false starts. Hakuho also insisted on touching down last. On the other hand, and a bit less likely, if you can pick up signals by closely watching your opponent prepare to launch, there might be an advantage in that. Onosato is huge and can afford to start late.
I've tried to see whether there's any custom or unofficial rule as to who touches down last. I thought it might be by rank, with the higher ranked rikishi touching down last, but I haven't noticed any pattern to it.
Mary's memory is right. That was on Dosukoi Sumo Salon. I had it in my queue to watch and so I pulled it out and watched it. They found that Hakuho was the fastest off the tachiai and in the videos they showed I noticed that he touched down last, so that gave him an advantage. But as for speed and hip height, Kisenosato said he was second to last, yet he still become yokozuna. He was always making minute adjustments to his tachiai trying to find the ideal method. There are a lot of contributing factors and variables. Dosukoi also looked at impact force, psychological intimidation, and how long the first and second steps are. Unfortunately, my copy is missing the final 13 minutes.
They said that 80% of bouts are decided by the tachiai, but that sure doesn't seem right to me. A lot of bouts look like they could go either way right up to the end.
I'm definitely interested in find out more on this and it's worth examining.
Thanks for the comment. I read that post and it was fascinating.
And I absolutely agree. It seems like study of tachiai would be great but I don't know how to get in touch with top level rikishi to get an idea about their process haha. Great hearing from you and hopefully I can find more to write on this that's helpful. Cheers!
Great write up, whatever beya hired you would get a quick leg up on the competition.
Fun challenge thinking of other stats. Torso/spinal angle at tachai would be a good one as being upright is credited for losses and certain rikishi are praised for staying low, like the exit angle in baseball might reveal a lot.
Holds broken with the hip wiggle would be another good one to track.
I would be interested to learn how wrong sumo commentators likely are about who has a dominant left etc, those subjective analysis are often proven wrong with hindsight and it’s such a large part of commentary.